1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,520 Time for It's a Free Country, a genial debate which takes a fresh look at the intriguing 2 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,320 subject of flying sources. 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:28,520 Hoping to control the proceedings is your Chairman, John Timson. 4 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,480 Very good evening to you and welcome to It's a Free Country. 5 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:37,960 We shall be taking some controversial popular belief and placing it on trial to see if our 6 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:43,880 resident protagonists can sway the audience here in the studio and of course you at home. 7 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,800 They have a limited time to put their case and they can each call an expert witness 8 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:50,320 who will later be cross-examined. 9 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:55,160 There will be a bell to tell them when their time is up and if our protagonists get too 10 00:00:55,160 --> 00:01:01,160 abstract I shall endeavour to silence them with this. 11 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,920 The question is do you believe in flying sources? 12 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,360 We asked our studio audience to vote on that before we came on the air but we'll keep 13 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,080 the result of that vote secret until the end of the program. 14 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:19,040 After they've heard the case, foreign against, we'll ask them to vote again and see which 15 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:24,480 of our protagonists has persuaded them to change their minds, if any. 16 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:29,120 Now first of all let me read you the Wedstor dictionary definition of a flying saucer so 17 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,440 we know precisely what we're talking about. 18 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:38,480 A flying saucer is defined as any of various unidentified moving objects repeatedly reported 19 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:44,480 as seen in the air and usually alleged to be saucer shaped or disc shaped. 20 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,480 Now Mr Patrick Moore is the protagonist who will speak against that, I suppose you could 21 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:55,120 call him the anti-tagonist but before he does so the case for the flying saucer will 22 00:01:55,120 --> 00:02:07,520 be presented by Mr Alfred Marx. 23 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:13,440 I'm very pleased they've chosen this subject especially being opposed by such a well known 24 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:18,760 famous astronomer as Patrick Moore because one of my best friends in Australia is Colonel 25 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:24,680 Arthur Page, a well known astronomer and he was anti and I converted him so I hope to 26 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:29,600 convert you Patrick before the evening is up. 27 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:34,640 Now I can't prove that flying saucers exist any more than Patrick and prove they do not 28 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:40,040 exist so what I do propose therefore is to present to you certain evidence of certain 29 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:41,040 sightings. 30 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:45,840 I'm going to discount the evidence of extremists who say they've seen little green men with 31 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:51,840 three legs and I'm quite aware that some sightings can be put down to drink, hallucinations, 32 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:57,400 met balloons, spots before the eyes, incorrectly observed aircraft and so on but I've chosen 33 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:02,920 some evidence at random from people whose opinions must be respected but first let's 34 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:06,320 consider that the flying saucer idea is not a recent one. 35 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:11,520 There are reports of drawings of flying saucers in caves in France and in Spain. 36 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:17,360 The cave drawings are on the roof and are the classic saucer shape invertebrates with 37 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,240 a bust like the tubrance at the top. 38 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,760 These drawings can be dated to about 12,000 to 10,000 BC. 39 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:30,440 Frequently they're in caves where other drawings of bison, mammoth, horse and man appear at 40 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:36,280 some distance from them indicating that the people and the animals of the day were afraid 41 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:37,440 of the UFOs. 42 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:44,480 Also seen in the caves are drawings of the sausage shaped UFO with six minted discs flying 43 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:45,480 alongside. 44 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:52,040 Now please keep this in mind as I have evidence from a BAC pilot of a sighting of one UFO 45 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,800 with six outriders. 46 00:03:54,800 --> 00:04:01,880 On April 15, 1897 at Lindgrove, Iowa, the citizens saw a large construction in the air moving 47 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:02,880 slowly north. 48 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:09,360 It shall be that same evening a large optic with one white and one green night was seen. 49 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:15,240 At the same time in Middleville changing lights of red, blue and green appeared in the southwest 50 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,360 and moved north. 51 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,880 More and more independent witnesses gave evidence of different sightings over the same area 52 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,280 which proves there were many kinds of saucer out that night. 53 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:33,000 Way more up to date and a little nearer home, in 1968 the Reverend Anthony Millican, walking 54 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:38,720 with his wife in Arliss Park near Bristol, saw a glowing optic hovering six feet from 55 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:43,400 the ground, 80 yards away, revolving and steady in position. 56 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,000 It faded after about 20 seconds. 57 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,640 There were many other sightings about that time at Warminster and Bristol by people unknown 58 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,320 to the Vicar. 59 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:59,560 On November 30, 1973 the pilot of a small plane landing at Turing Airport saw a luminous 60 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,680 ball of 400 meters above the runway. 61 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:08,120 The object made often in irregular fashion with fantastic lateral deviations impossible 62 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,320 for any known aircraft to execute. 63 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:16,000 Two airline pilots also saw it, one of them having to take a voiding action to prevent 64 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,000 the collision. 65 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,320 They all said they'd never seen anything like it before. 66 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:26,840 Robert Galley, the French Minister of Defense, gave Otto Speedy first establishment broadcast 67 00:05:26,840 --> 00:05:30,280 on flying saucers in 1974. 68 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:35,680 He said that since 1954 when a department has set up in the ministry to study eyewitness 69 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,880 accounts of sightings, there has been a great mass of detailed reports from pilots and the 70 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:47,480 commanding personnel of various Air Force centers that agreed in quite a disturbing manner. 71 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:48,480 Thank you, Mr. Vart. 72 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:49,480 Thank you. 73 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:50,480 We have to stop you there. 74 00:05:50,480 --> 00:06:00,480 Mr. Speedy, with a magnificent breath you took four minutes to get. 75 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:10,360 Well, now we'll be hearing more from Mr. Marks in a moment or two, but now to put the case 76 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,240 against flying saucers, Mr. Patrick Moore. 77 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:18,640 Well, I must say I'm very sorry that my Leonard Apperner was stopped when he was, but he was 78 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,200 just making my own case for me so beautifully. 79 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:26,200 We've got, first of all, you know, the distinguish between the two kinds of flying saucers. 80 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:31,680 As you should very right have said, the unidentified flying orbit that had been reported in the 81 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:38,720 air and those evidences are so-called of contact with, well, we can't see little green men 82 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,880 now, little green people, should we say, who are coming from other worlds. 83 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,840 Now this I think is vitally important because if you tell me that there are things in the 84 00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:54,360 air that can't be explained, well, I'm not proposing to oppose that one. 85 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,920 Things like ice crystals, inversions, you can get all kinds of phenomena. 86 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,680 Now I don't propose to say very much more about the so-called contactees. 87 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,200 I think I must tell you one very brief story. 88 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,960 Some years ago in America, I did actually meet a man who wrote a book called A Board of Flying 89 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:16,240 S saucer, which he described as experiences aboard a flying saucer piloted by a beautiful 90 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,360 lady from Venus named Mrs. Aura Reigns. 91 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:24,880 And then came out, carefully entitled, non-fiction, a story of a true experience. 92 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:26,840 And it had a very good sale. 93 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,840 The trouble is that his wife didn't appreciate it. 94 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,440 She bumped his student for the board, cited the lady from Venus, and she won. 95 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:40,840 But of course, when they come across people who say, I have seen a flying saucer. 96 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,920 The obvious answer is, well, you're a nut. 97 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,800 Or it's too soon off the closing time. 98 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,400 And this, of course, is precisely what you can't say. 99 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:56,600 And I think I can dispose of your sightings straight away by two cases, both of which 100 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:58,440 are well-authenticated. 101 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:03,720 You may remember way back in 1938, there was a misleading broadcast in America of the 102 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,400 famous well story at the Wall of the Wells. 103 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:12,000 It was produced by Orson Welles, and people took it to be an actual news broadcast. 104 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:17,720 And there were people who actually saw the Martians, felt the heat rays, and saw the fighting 105 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:18,720 machines. 106 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,720 And there was a very considerable panic. 107 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,760 Now this was a broadcast, and yet people came forward prepared to swear that they had seen 108 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:27,400 these things. 109 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:33,400 And going back, oh, it's 20 years now, a slightly discreditable episode, in which I was myself 110 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:34,760 of the involved. 111 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:40,880 I admit that many years ago, using an assumed name, I put in a report to a local paper of 112 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:46,880 a flying saucer seen over Porridge Row, and over two dozen people wrote in to confirm it. 113 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:54,760 And it's very significant indeed that there are no serious astronomers, no scientists, 114 00:08:54,760 --> 00:09:00,440 who have ever, in fact, seen a thing that they can attribute to a spacecraft from another 115 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:01,440 world. 116 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,080 And this, in fact, is what we are talking about. 117 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,840 Now let's come on then to this first and off, if these things could be spaceships, where 118 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:10,480 could they come from? 119 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:11,480 And I am a little bit... 120 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:12,480 No, I'm not. 121 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:13,480 What's the point? 122 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:14,480 I'm good. 123 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:15,480 I'm good. 124 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:16,480 I'm good. 125 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:27,480 Very good, Mr. Moore. 126 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,400 And I hope, perhaps later, there'll be an opportunity to find out where they came from. 127 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,480 There will be an opportunity to come back to you. 128 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:37,840 Meanwhile, we now ask Mr. Marks to call his witness in support of flying saucers. 129 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:38,840 Yes, yes indeed. 130 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,800 Yes, I have very great pleasure introducing my witness. 131 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,080 He is Mr. Charles Gibbs Smith, the well-known aviation historian. 132 00:09:47,080 --> 00:10:00,080 Well, I won't need you with any questions. 133 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,080 The floor's all yours, sir. 134 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:03,080 Yes, sir. 135 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,080 Yes, sir. 136 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:05,080 Yes, sir. 137 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:06,080 Yes, sir. 138 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:07,080 Yes, sir. 139 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:08,080 Yes, sir. 140 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:09,080 Yes, sir. 141 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:10,080 Yes, sir. 142 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:11,080 Yes, sir. 143 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:12,080 Yes, sir. 144 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:13,080 Yes, sir. 145 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:14,080 Yes, sir. 146 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:15,080 Yes, sir. 147 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:16,080 Yes, sir. 148 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:17,080 Yes, sir. 149 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,080 Yes, sir. 150 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:19,080 Yes, sir. 151 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:20,080 Yes, sir. 152 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:21,080 Yes, sir. 153 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:22,080 Yes, sir. 154 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:23,080 Yes, sir. 155 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:24,080 Yes, sir. 156 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:25,080 Yes, sir. 157 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,080 Yes, sir. 158 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:27,080 Yes, sir. 159 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:28,080 Yes, sir. 160 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:29,080 Yes, sir. 161 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:30,080 Yes, sir. 162 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:31,080 Yes, sir. 163 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:32,080 Yes, sir. 164 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:33,080 Yes, sir. 165 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:34,080 Yes, sir. 166 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:35,080 Yes, sir. 167 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:36,080 Yes, sir. 168 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:37,080 Yes, sir. 169 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:38,080 Yes, sir. 170 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:39,080 Yes, sir. 171 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:40,080 Yes, sir. 172 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:41,080 Yes, sir. 173 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:42,080 Yes, sir. 174 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:43,080 Yes, sir. 175 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:44,080 Yes, sir. 176 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:45,080 Yes, sir. 177 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:46,080 Yes, sir. 178 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:47,080 Yes, sir. 179 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:48,080 Yes, sir. 180 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,080 Yes, sir. 181 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:50,080 Yes, sir. 182 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:51,080 Yes, sir. 183 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:52,080 Yes, sir. 184 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:53,080 Yes, sir. 185 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:54,080 Yes, sir. 186 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:55,080 Yes, sir. 187 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:56,080 Yes, sir. 188 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:57,080 Yes, sir. 189 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:58,080 Yes, sir. 190 00:10:58,080 --> 00:10:59,080 Yes, sir. 191 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:00,080 Yes, sir. 192 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,080 Yes, sir. 193 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:02,080 Yes, sir. 194 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:03,080 Yes, sir. 195 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:04,080 Yes, sir. 196 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:05,080 Yes, sir. 197 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,080 Yes, sir. 198 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:07,080 Yes, sir. 199 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:08,080 Yes, sir. 200 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:09,080 Yes, sir. 201 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:10,080 Yes, sir. 202 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:11,080 Yes, sir. 203 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:12,080 Yes, sir. 204 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:13,080 Yes, sir. 205 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:14,080 Yes, sir. 206 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:15,080 Yes, sir. 207 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:16,080 Yes, sir. 208 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:17,080 Yes, sir. 209 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:18,080 Yes, sir. 210 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:19,080 Yes, sir. 211 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:20,080 Yes, sir. 212 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:21,080 Yes, sir. 213 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:22,080 Yes, sir. 214 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:23,080 Yes, sir. 215 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:24,080 Yes, sir. 216 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:25,080 Yes, sir. 217 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:26,080 Yes, sir. 218 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:27,080 Yes, sir. 219 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:28,080 Yes, sir. 220 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:29,080 Yes, sir. 221 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:30,080 Yes, sir. 222 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:31,080 Yes, sir. 223 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:32,080 Yes, sir. 224 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:33,080 Yes, sir. 225 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:34,080 Yes, sir. 226 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:35,080 Yes, sir. 227 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:36,080 Yes, sir. 228 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:37,080 Yes, sir. 229 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:38,080 Yes, sir. 230 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,080 Yes, sir. 231 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:40,080 Yes, sir. 232 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:41,080 Yes, sir. 233 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:42,080 Yes, sir. 234 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:43,080 Yes, sir. 235 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:44,080 Yes, sir. 236 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:45,080 Yes, sir. 237 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:46,080 Yes, sir. 238 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:47,080 Yes, sir. 239 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:48,080 Yes, sir. 240 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:49,080 Yes, sir. 241 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:50,080 Yes, sir. 242 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,080 Yes, sir. 243 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:52,080 Yes, sir. 244 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:53,080 Yes, sir. 245 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:54,080 Yes, sir. 246 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:55,080 Yes, sir. 247 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:56,080 Yes, sir. 248 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:57,080 Yes, sir. 249 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:58,080 Yes, sir. 250 00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:59,080 Yes, sir. 251 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:00,080 Sir. 252 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:01,080 Sir. 253 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:02,080 Sir. 254 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:03,080 Sir. 255 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:04,080 Sir. 256 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:05,080 Sir. 257 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,080 Sure, sir. 258 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,080 Sir. 259 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,080 Sir, sir. 260 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,080 Sir. 261 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,080 That is colonel Val willрат SVENSACK mail. 262 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:11,080 Oh, yes, sir, sir. 263 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:12,080 Sir. 264 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:13,080 No, sir? 265 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:14,080 No, sir. 266 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:15,080 Sir. 267 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:16,080 Sir, sir. 268 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:17,080 Yes, sir. 269 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:18,080 Sir. 270 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:19,080 Sir, sir. 271 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:20,080 Yes, sir. 272 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:21,080 Yes, sir. 273 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:22,080 Yes, sir. 274 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:23,080 Sir. 275 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:24,080 Very nice. 276 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:25,080 Sir. 277 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:38,280 I don't think that interrupt this point Mr. Marks, because I can see that the boy is 278 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:43,520 too polite to do so, but he was I think surprised that you had two witnesses when he was advised 279 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:44,520 there might only be one. 280 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:45,520 Yes. 281 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,760 This is when our president indeed, and as we have no president, this is the first program 282 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:50,760 we are creating one. 283 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:57,760 So I am perfectly happy, sir, I am backing on a very good wicket. 284 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:08,760 Well I could have put it rather more succinctly and say, Sucks Boo to you, Patty. 285 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:13,280 Captain Howard, you are the retired BOEC Stratocruiser pilot. 286 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:14,280 That is serious. 287 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,480 Would you like to tell us what you saw? 288 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:25,480 Yes, on the evening of June 21st, 1954, I was in command of a scheduled BOEC flight from 289 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,120 New York to London. 290 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:34,880 About three and a half hours after taking off from New York, we just crossed over a point 291 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:41,840 in the St. Lawrence Estuary called Seven Islands, and we were flying above a broken scattered 292 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,720 cloud at 19,000 feet. 293 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:51,480 I happened to glance out the window on the left-hand side of the flight deck and saw 294 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,840 something moving below the clouds. 295 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,440 I could see them through the gaps in the clouds. 296 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:04,080 And after a few moments, we left the cloud deck behind us and we were then in perfectly 297 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,080 clear visibility. 298 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,160 And these things were clearly in sight. 299 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:15,680 There was one large object with three smaller ones ahead of it and three behind it. 300 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:21,760 So there was one large one, six small ones, and they climbed up until they were level 301 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:29,920 at our own altitude and stayed alongside us for 20 minutes, a distance of 80 miles, in 302 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,880 perfectly clear, a perfectly clear evening. 303 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:41,440 The sun was about to set when we first saw them, and by the time we left them, the sun 304 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,280 had just gone the horizon. 305 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:44,880 The visibility was perfect. 306 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,760 It's true to say, Captain, how your passengers saw it too, is that right? 307 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:56,480 Yes, everyone on the aircraft, there was a total of 39 people, including crew, all had 308 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,000 a perfectly clear sight of these things. 309 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:04,280 And in fact, sat with their eyes glued to the noses, glued to the windows. 310 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,720 Do you see eyes crystals before heaven, true, Captain? 311 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:07,720 Yes. 312 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:08,720 And you didn't hear all some wells before? 313 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:09,720 Castlewater Wells did you? 314 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:10,720 No. 315 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:11,720 Thank you very much indeed. 316 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:21,720 Well, now, Mr. Moore, you will have the opportunity to cross it down in both those witnesses. 317 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:31,240 Now, would you care to produce your own expert? 318 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:32,560 I would, Mr. Lighter, sir. 319 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:37,560 May I call please, Dr. Christopher Evans. 320 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:47,440 Dr. Evans, do you probably know, he's a very well-known writer, very well-known broadcaster, 321 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,440 and of course, a very well-known experimental psychologist. 322 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,280 Now, I think, once again, I'm going to follow Mr. Mark's example. 323 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,200 I'm not going to sort of punt you, because I know that you have strong views on this 324 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:00,200 matter. 325 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,560 So, I'm going to just begin by asking you if I may, do you believe in flying saucers? 326 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:05,560 No, I don't. 327 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:11,200 But I also think it's very important to distinguish between, as you've done, between flying saucers 328 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,080 and unidentified flying objects. 329 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,800 I, like you and probably everybody else in the room, believe in unidentified flying 330 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:18,800 objects. 331 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,560 It would be very peculiar if every object in the sky had been identified. 332 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,880 What I don't believe, and I really don't think there's sufficient evidence to believe 333 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:32,600 it, is that these things are flying saucers, or as implied, I think, spaceships from some 334 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:33,600 other planet. 335 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,240 Now, there are two reasons why I don't believe this. 336 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:37,960 Fairly basic ones, actually. 337 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:38,960 The first is this. 338 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:47,120 But as a psychologist, I know how awful people are at giving witness to things that they've 339 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,800 been, how bad they are at testifying, and how unreliable their memories are. 340 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,880 And that's why one wishes, for example, that Captain Howard from Markable Story had been 341 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,520 backed up by a photograph. 342 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,680 I'm surprised that 39 people in the Strata Cruise didn't take one decent picture of 343 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,480 this thing, because if they had, I think we'd be talking about something quite different 344 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:06,480 today. 345 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:13,800 Now, the second thing that makes me, again, suspicious about this is I, too, am a pilot. 346 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,800 The reason here that I don't believe in flying saucers is because I've actually seen them. 347 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,640 Now, that may seem a bit of a paradox, what it amounts to. 348 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,640 I've, on many occasions, seen things which have really surprised me. 349 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:33,040 To give one example, if I can, I was flying down to the West Country in a light airplane 350 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:39,600 and not too long ago, in fact, and on the way down, I saw something which looked like 351 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,560 the classic picture for flying saucer. 352 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:47,680 That was a sort of luminous disc moving at a very peculiar speed. 353 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,720 And the passenger with me also saw this. 354 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,320 And you know, although I don't fleet in saucers, my hair stood on end for a moment. 355 00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:00,760 This thing seemed to be traveling at an incredible speed and behaving in a very peculiar way. 356 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:08,440 Now we watched this for five or ten minutes, some such amount, and suddenly we realized, 357 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,880 you are amazement, that it was a helicopter coming into land at the local Naval Air Station. 358 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:18,480 Now some trick of the light, I don't know what it was, had made it look like a flying saucer. 359 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:23,160 Now, we both then saw the helicopter and that cleared our mind about it. 360 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,640 But if we hadn't seen the helicopter and we'd been disposed to believe in flying saucers, 361 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,320 then maybe I'd be telling you a different story today. 362 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:34,800 But there's a sting to this story, and this is perhaps the crux of it. 363 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:41,760 About four months after this experience, the passenger who traveled down with me to Bristol, 364 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:49,280 I heard him talking in a group, and I heard him describing this story as a flying saucer story. 365 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:54,480 He'd forgotten about the helicopter, and he was busy telling people about the flying saucer 366 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,440 that we'd seen on the way down to Bristol. 367 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:02,960 Now that tells me bakers about human beings, bakers about their unreliabilities, witnesses, 368 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:08,160 and also the way in which they'll make quite an interesting story into a simple one if they can. 369 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:15,080 So it's fair enough to say that you regard flying saucers as being ordinary natural objects 370 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:20,200 in the atmosphere that are misinterpreted by tricks of the mind if you like to put it that way. 371 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,440 Well, it may be all kinds of things. Let me put it this way. 372 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,280 I think that's the simplest and the safest explanation to take. 373 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:31,240 Now, if I'm fascinated by this topic, if a flying saucer landed into Favre Square tomorrow, 374 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,520 I'd be the first to rush out and look at it. 375 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,440 You know, this would intrigue me no end. 376 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:40,120 I would like to see some decent photographs, and perhaps Captain Hough could tell us later on 377 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:41,880 why nobody there thought to take a picture. 378 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,320 But the only photographs I've ever seen looked like the most silly kind of fakes. 379 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:46,320 And one... 380 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:59,320 APPLAUSE 381 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:04,560 And I'm sure you will have noted if you heard your stopwatches out that we gave that witness 382 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:09,360 that the total time was given that two witnesses put together so that we balance out the two archivists. 383 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:15,000 Now, before we leave this, Dr Evans, could we ask Mr. Marks to conduct your cross-examination? 384 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,960 Yes, Dr Evans, good evening. 385 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,240 Let's take up a question for the photographs. 386 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,240 You say... If I heard it correctly, you said, 387 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:29,040 because there are no photographs, we have no proof. 388 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:30,320 No, I didn't say that at all. 389 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,640 I said I would have been much more convinced if I had seen some good photographs. 390 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,800 Yes, but because there are no photographs, are you equally convinced there are not flying saucers? 391 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,720 No, in fact, I'm not convinced there are not flying saucers. 392 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,760 I just say the evidence that they exist is not good. 393 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,320 I see. But there are no photographs. 394 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,760 Whether you want to discount with space or not is entirely up to you. 395 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,920 Mr. Gippsmith has some photographs, which he assures me are not fake. 396 00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:02,520 They've gone through rigid tests by positive people, and he says they are not fake. 397 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,640 And I find two figures worth it. 398 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,480 Now, these caves, drawings in the caves, prehistoric cave drawings, 399 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,720 I don't think any of those ever saw helicopters or balloons. 400 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:14,800 How do you explain that away? 401 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,040 There might be all kinds of things. 402 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:21,680 Another thing, incidentally, which looks very like a flying saucer, seems incredible, is a bird. 403 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:27,520 If you get light reflected from a bird, it will look like a shining disk. 404 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,360 I've seen this many times. 405 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:36,080 For a pilot who's flown for 34 years, responsible, logical, technically-minded people 406 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,800 who know what ice crystals look like, know what birds and helicopters look like, 407 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,840 this can't be discounted easily, can it? 408 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,960 Not easily at all. No, but I think that the evidence that these things are flying saucers 409 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,080 or spaceships is very, very thin. 410 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,920 As I said before, I believe in unidentified flying objects. 411 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,760 We're all talking about those. 412 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,280 But these spaceships, now, I don't seem to be able to answer that. 413 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,000 As I said, at least in the future, we'd do. 414 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,480 Yes. Shakespeare said it to me, there are more things in heaven and earth 415 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,880 than would be done in your monthly haraist. 416 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,160 I absolutely agree with him. 417 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,080 I think... 418 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:22,080 I want to thank you for being with me, Doctor. 419 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,080 I'm pleased about that. 420 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:38,080 Honest floor, we do kind of recall the two opposing witnesses. 421 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:39,080 I'd be delighted to do so. 422 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:40,080 Which one would you like first? 423 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,080 I think if I may, I'm a very brief question to Captain Howard, if I might. 424 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,080 Two very brief questions. 425 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,080 You say that these saucers were 80 miles away. 426 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,080 No, no, not 80 miles away. 427 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,080 No, I should think that it's very hard to say how far away they were 428 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,080 because I don't know how big they were. 429 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:58,080 Exactly. 430 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,080 They followed us for 80 miles. 431 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:05,080 But what you are saying, in fact, is that you don't have an accurate measure of their distance. 432 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:09,080 And therefore, you cannot possibly tell their size, but as you know better than I do, 433 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,080 it is impossible to tell the size of an object in this unit's distance. 434 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,080 Or vice versa. 435 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,080 Absolutely. 436 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:20,080 So in fact, you have absolutely no idea of how big or how far away these things were. 437 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,080 I wouldn't say not any idea. 438 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,080 You would have given us time to be proved. 439 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,080 No, no, I take the point. 440 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,080 Absolutely no proof of how big or how far away they were. 441 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,080 Okay. 442 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,080 And afterwards, when you were talking to the passengers, 443 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,080 did you get the various descriptions from the passengers? 444 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,080 And did you take up after a few weeks to see where they all recall the same thing? 445 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,080 No, obviously not. 446 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,080 I lost my passengers when I got to London. 447 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,080 I haven't had contact with them since, but I kept in touch with the crew. 448 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,080 Thank you, Captain Tub. 449 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,080 Thank you, Captain. 450 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,080 Now, if I may tackle my own fellow Mr. Charles Gibbs Smith, 451 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:09,080 who had the greatest effect as a various skillful student of the history of aircraft, 452 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:14,080 which I don't entirely agree on this particular point. 453 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:20,080 You know, one thing that always strikes me here is that when we come to a controversial subject, 454 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:26,080 such as flying saucers, there is always the mysterious and anonymous wave of a capital T. 455 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:31,080 And when you come down to try and nail down absolute facts, this is very difficult to do. 456 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:37,080 You've been referring to high-up sources in various governments who know perfectly well that flying saucers exist. 457 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:38,080 Who are they? 458 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:44,080 Clearly, I am not going to start the name, Exacter Man and Dead in War, 459 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,080 to be chaotic with me and practically lie to us. 460 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:49,080 Exactly. 461 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,080 But what about... 462 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,080 What about... 463 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:52,080 What about... 464 00:24:52,080 --> 00:25:01,080 What about two of your own kids? What about Tombo and what about Heineck? 465 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:08,080 I do know Dr. Tombo quite well, but he does not necessarily say that these things are statutes from another world. 466 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:15,080 What he is saying and saying absolutely correctly is that there are things in the atmosphere that we cannot explain and decide entirely. 467 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:16,080 I agree. 468 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,080 But these are not statutes from another world and he has never said that they are. 469 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,080 You're lying. 470 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,080 But Neckis or Hill argument, surely, it falls to the ground also. 471 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,080 There are. 472 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:38,080 There are intelligently controlled, unidentified flying objects which do not fit any known scientific or natural phenomenon in existence. 473 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:43,080 Can you tell me how exactly you know that these things are intelligently controlled? 474 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,080 By many, many, many. 475 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,080 But can we have some? 476 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,080 Well, for him, it's the radar sightings, gun sight lock-ons in Alaska. 477 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,080 The Lord knows how many there are, of course, in the station. 478 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:55,080 Yes, sir. 479 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,080 Well, thank you very much. 480 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:13,080 And now it is a fine opportunity for the two protagonists to sum up or give a final word about their case. 481 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,080 One more word from Mr. Mock. 482 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,080 I am very unconvinced by Patrick's argument. 483 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:23,080 Our galaxy, as Patrick well knows, I am teaching my grandmother the sake of... 484 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,080 Oh, Lord. 485 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,080 It is about the grandfather, grandfather, grand-person. 486 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:29,080 You meant her. 487 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:38,080 Your information, Patrick, our galaxy is a vast system of stars so enormous that in our recognizable spheres of reference, 488 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:44,080 it's almost impossible for us to imagine that our, for our knowledge, galaxies both smaller and larger than our own. 489 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,080 Correct, aren't I so... 490 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,080 Absolutely correct, you're a catapulting scientist. 491 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:52,080 And therefore it's a mathematical probability, almost a mathematical certainty, isn't it, 492 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:59,080 that somewhere in our galaxy and in countless others, there exists ideal conditions reproducing life intelligent life. 493 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,080 It's only of the tangent if I make you say it. 494 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:02,080 No, I'm not. 495 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,080 Yes, you are. 496 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,080 The point is, I am not saying that sources are impossible. 497 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:06,080 No. 498 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,080 What we have all said and what we have proved to the Hilt is that they're not the slightest evidence that they are genuine here. 499 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,080 No, just a moment, please. 500 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,080 If you accept... 501 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,080 You will be clapping the other side of your faces in a moment. 502 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:27,080 If you accept this, if you accept this, then we must accept that there's something maybe more advanced than us, right? 503 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,080 That would be quite easy. 504 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:31,080 Right. 505 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,080 If they are... 506 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:39,080 If they're more advanced, why couldn't they not have interstellar interstellar? 507 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:40,080 They could. 508 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,080 What I'm saying is there's not the slightest evidence that they haven't have come here. 509 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:49,080 I am not denying the possibility there may be many beings in the galaxy who have mastered interstellar travel. 510 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,080 What we've been talking about, or trying to talk about sensibly this evening, is quite simply, 511 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:58,080 is there any evidence that these beings have visited us and the answer is quite inclusive in that? 512 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,080 Good day, sir. 513 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,080 Now, I was just going to invite you to have your final word. 514 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,080 I can make a very brief service. 515 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,080 My dear Patrick, my dear Patrick. 516 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,080 May I make one final point here? 517 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,080 My dear Patrick. 518 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,080 I will only post what the Geocable Wellington said. 519 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,080 My dear Patrick. 520 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,080 Would you please allow me to talk about the Geocable Wellington? 521 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,080 No, I'm not interested. 522 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,080 The name up to the Geocable Wellington has said, 523 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,080 Excuse me, is your name Smith? 524 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,080 And he replied, Madam, if you will believe that, you will believe anything. 525 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,080 Well, I don't believe his name is Smith, and I do believe in flying saucers. 526 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,080 But the point is, we went by evidence only. 527 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,080 Well, that's your point, sir. 528 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,080 Charming it, my whole argument, you see. 529 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,080 I don't like this game. 530 00:28:55,080 --> 00:29:05,080 Well, gentlemen, it forces my lot to sum up this, which is a nile impossible task. 531 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,080 I will try and take you back over the arguments if I care. 532 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:14,080 As I recall, Mr. Marks launched his peroration with a review of the history of flying saucers, 533 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,080 going back to prehistoric flying saucers on caves, 534 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,080 even before days when they'd even invented ordinary saucers. 535 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,080 And we... 536 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,080 Mr. Chairman, please don't be flippant to try and destroy my outfit. 537 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,080 I'm terribly serious about this. 538 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,080 I've been there with you to be perfectly fair for both sides. 539 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:34,080 Thank you. 540 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,080 Your first witness, by everyone, knew about flying saucers, 541 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,080 but didn't like mention it because it's embarrassing, I think, was the phrase he used. 542 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:48,080 And when questioned on this, he was asked not to talk about astronomers, 543 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,080 but to also talk about intelligent saucers, Mr. Moore said. 544 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,080 Doesn't speak too kindly for astronomers, but I'm sure you can... 545 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,080 Oh, we are a mixed bunch, you know. 546 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,080 But then he did indeed quote a number of names, 547 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,080 which were obviously familiar, Mr. Moore. 548 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,080 They completely battle me. 549 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,080 So then we had Captain Howard, and I leave it to the audience here. 550 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,080 He went home to consider what it was that he saw, 551 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,080 and precisely how it should be interpreted. 552 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,080 That is that in his opening speech, Mr. Moore said the only thing you can say to people who've said, 553 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,080 they've seen flying saucers is to say that you're a nut. 554 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,080 I noticed that you were praying from doing so in this case, which was extremely good. 555 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,080 Too bad in mind, I did not know that there was to be a second witness. 556 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,080 Otherwise, I would have chosen my words. 557 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,080 And I didn't know you'd bring him to Duke of Wellington, so we're... 558 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:53,080 Well, moving on to the other case, Mr. Moore, Mr. Moore quoted the many cases of suspected sightings, 559 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:58,080 which turned out to be hoaxes, and indeed, Mr. Moore was such a hoax himself, 560 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:05,080 and produced as his expert witness Dr. Evans, a psychologist who advises how unreliable we all are, 561 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,080 which is a pretty safe bet. 562 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,080 And also said that he was a pilot, has indeed. 563 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:15,080 Moore is a pilot, everybody on this practice is a pilot, he said, you see. 564 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:20,080 He tried to point out that even pilots, noble fellows as they are, can still make mistakes. 565 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,080 So those are the two things. 566 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:28,080 The one point which perhaps I ought to give a little guidance on is the point that Dr. Evans made, 567 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:33,080 and he said that he didn't believe in flying saucers, he did believe that there were unidentified flying objects. 568 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:38,080 So I ought to bring you back before I ask you to vote, to the actual definition which we are talking about, 569 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:45,080 when we ask you to give a decision on this, that a flying saucer is defined as any of various unidentified moving objects, 570 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:51,080 repeatedly reported as seen in the air, usually alleged to be saucer shape or disc shape. 571 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:57,080 Now I leave you to decide whether that has been approved or not approved, 572 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:02,080 and I will ask you now, ladies and gentlemen here in the studio, and indeed you at home, have a think as well, 573 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,080 and to vote on this question. 574 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,080 Right now, ladies and gentlemen, we have the final results. 575 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:25,080 And now let me point out to you that the important thing here is not who got the most votes, 576 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:30,080 but who swayed the most people to change their minds during the course of this debate. 577 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,080 This is the important thing. 578 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,080 Now let me tell you first of all that before we started the debate this evening, 579 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:43,080 there were 41% believed in flying saucers and 59% did not. 580 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,080 That's 41, 4, and 59 against. 581 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:56,080 And since hearing the arguments, the register is 45 are 4 flying saucers and 55 against. 582 00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:02,080 So the number has gone up 4 flying saucers and I declare Mr Alfred Marx a winner. 583 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:23,080 Well, I wonder if you changed your mind at home as well. 584 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:28,080 Well, whether you did or not, on behalf of Dr Christopher Evans, Charles Gibbs Smith, 585 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:34,080 and just Captain James Howard from the health remarks of Patrick Moore and from myself, John Sampson. 586 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,080 A very good evening to you.